Matt Stauffer:
All right, welcome back to Laravel podcast season seven. I'm your host, Matt Stauffer, CEO of a Tighten. And in this season, I'm joined every episode by usually a different member of Laravel team. But today we have our first repeat guest. I'm so happy to have Joe Tannenbaum and Joe. I don't actually have your title in front of me, so you'll have to tell everybody. But can you say hi to everybody and tell them about what you do at Laravel?

Joe Tannenbaum:
Sure. I'm Joe Tannenbaum. I'm the open source lead engineer at Laravel and I begged to get back on the show. So that's why I'm back out. Well, I love you and that's why I want to be back on the show.

Matt Stauffer:
That's a lie. I love you, but that is a lie. I beg to get you back. Okay, fair fair fair. So because you're a repeat guest, we're not gonna kind of go through the origin story for anybody who has not gotten a chance to listen to the previous episode. I highly recommend you listen to it. We'll link it in the show notes. But today we want to talk about yet another thing that you're actually involved in. Today it's something called Wayfinder. And some of you all have heard of Wayfinder before because you attended or watched Laracon or you're actively plugged in. But I know from my history of talking to people who listen to the podcast that there's a lot of people who listen to the podcast who don't consume every video that comes out and watch every tweet or whatever. And so I just want us to get started by saying like, what is Wayfinder just from an elevator pitch? You know, what is it? And then we'll kind of dive into what it means and what's changed about Wayfinder since Laracon and everything like that. But first of all, just what is Wayfinder?

Joe Tannenbaum:
Okay, well there's two versions of Wayfinder. The current version that is out is generating TypeScript and JavaScript for your Laravel routes. So it analyzes your Laravel application, it analyzes your routes, and it generates TypeScript that you can import into your client-side code. And so that allows you to have some end-to-end type safety between the server stuff and your...

Matt Stauffer:
Okay.

Joe Tannenbaum:
your client side code in terms of routes. The new version of Wayfinder will do that plus a thousand other things, but we can get into more detail about that later.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yes, perfect. And one of the reasons we're doing the Wayfinder episode right now is because you are you have released the version that does the routes and you're working on a releasing soon based on when we drop this off the beta of the of the new version. So let's talk about the existing version quickly so that we can kind of use that as the base. And one of the things I told you ahead of time is I want to talk about Ziggy as a kind of comparison. So for those who listen to the podcast, who don't use TypeScript.

You are likely in a case that I was in pretty recently where you're like, I keep hearing about this TypeScript thing and I keep talking about type safety and this, that and the other. And I'm just kind of like, what's the actual thing here? So I wanted to use Ziggy as our kind of comparison point. Ziggy is a tool that Daniel Colborne built while he was at Tighten and we still maintain it that allows you in JavaScript to use your Laravel defined route names. And so if you say, I want to link to the show book page,you link to, you know, books.show or whatever the short name is for your route and Ziggy kind of converts that into a URL. And so just like in your backend code where you can use Laravel's route helpers, you can also use Ziggy in your front end code to generate that URL. So the initial release of Wayfinder does a very similar thing, but it's different and largely I think because of the TypeScript aspect. Can you talk to me as imaginary listener, who is using JavaScript and who's using Ziggy and is not using TypeScript in a day to day and talk about what does the TypeScriptiness of this benefit and what does it give to us that we don't get from just pure JavaScript.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Okay, let me take you back just a little bit to I was looking through the Slack messages today to be like, how did this all start? I can't really remember because it feels like it was so long ago. I originally was going to build something into Inertia.

Matt Stauffer:
Uh-huh.

Joe Tannenbaum:
that was a drop in replacement for Ziggy, but it was generated on the client side. So I was building a little route helper and then it would just generate TypeScript so that you would get some auto completion around like routes and parameters and things like that. And then it would compile and then whatever you didn't use kind of went away.

Matt Stauffer:
How nice.

Joe Tannenbaum:
That was the original vision. was just like, okay, we have Ziggy. Let's do a drop in replacement. It's going to be kind of inertia specific and we'll just, we'll just roll with that. My teammate, Tim McDonald, Galaxy brain Tim McDonald, maybe one of the smartest people I've ever spoken to. I do not know what's going on in Australia, but there is something in the water because man, they are cranking out some insane devs.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.

Same. Something in the water. Yep.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Tim said, Hey bud, I've been working on something called Wayfinder for a while and I'm doing, I'm just taking a very different approach. Do you like this approach? Should we like combo on this and figure it out? I loved his approach. Now his approach was forget route names.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
What is the controller? What is the method you're hitting? So instead of saying, you know, form action, login, you would say form action is authenticated session controller store, right? So that you're kind of just like taking the name abstraction away and getting right to the code you've actually written on the other side. Then, that generates both the methods. So like the posts put patch, whatever you're using in the URL...

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
within that little method call on JavaScript. That way, anything that you change on the server side gets automatically reflected. All of the URLs and methods, they don't exist anymore in your client-side code. It's just a reflection of what you've written on the PHP side.

The benefit here, the benefit of TypeScript, and by the way, you don't need to be writing TypeScript to take advantage of this stuff. It happens to be generating TypeScript, but you can consume it in a regular JavaScript file. You just get more intelligence around it if you're also writing TypeScript. So the benefit of something like TypeScript is that...

You get auto completion like if you like all of that IDE auto completion and pop-ups and intelligence as you write something like PHP. You get all of that in JavaScript too if you're writing TypeScript, right? So like if you hit quotes and we've defined possible values for that value, it'll pop up with a list of things that you can type there, and then it'll squiggle red when you type in something that's not in that list, right? So that's a very basic example, but that's the benefit of TypeScript. That's why we're writing this in TypeScript and strongly typing everything that Wayfinder is generating so that you get the maximum level of intelligence that you can in your IDE and at compile time that you can. I meandered a little bit there, but we got there.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, that's very helpful. No, it's good. It's very helpful because I think that only maybe two weeks ago or three weeks ago did I first hear somebody make the pitch that TypeScript is for IDE, not for, you know, because when people hear type safety, usually hear these things around protecting from developers making mistakes and helping with your compile. And it's a lot of stuff that we just tend to like care about a little bit less than some of the more kind of like.

Joe Tannenbaum:
You kinda shrug it off a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, right. It's like, OK, that's cool. Or yeah, those people are probably the people who put final before their classes. Like they're just trying to lock everything down more than I am. Right. But when you say, you know, TypeScript gives you a much better experience in your ID and it gives you auto completion for things. You everyone's like, yeah, great. Give me give me better auto completions. Give me a little pop up that says here's the parameter order that you should be expecting from this thing. And the way I'm used to in other languages that I'm not giving for my JavaScript. So I'm like, great. Sold. Makes sense.

Joe Tannenbaum:
That's right.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah. And, and I think, I think especially, I don't want to make a huge generalization here, but I think PHP dev see there's very complicated typescript. You can write extremely complicated types and we've all seen them screen-shotted on the internet and passed around and like, this is the scary bit of typescript. That is a scary bit of typescript, but that's not the typescript you're probably going to be writing unless you're writing a typescript package, right? Like that's like package level code in your, in your day-to-day applications. You're not running anything...

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

Joe Tannenbaum:
close to that. I mean, there's it's for the 99 % case. You're writing like really simple types that probably look relatively familiar to you from writing types in PHP, to be honest. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, and PHP, yeah. And to your point, the idea that you can get benefits from a package being written in TypeScript without writing any TypeScript yourself, I think is also a message that is not being shared very much. So I'm very helpful that you shared that. Yeah, that's very cool.

Joe Tannenbaum:
That's the huge boost. Yes. Absolutely.

Matt Stauffer:
OK, so we have a version of Wayfinder out today that is for routes. And it's similar to Ziggy in that it allows you to link to your routes in the front end, but it adds two new benefits. One of the benefits being that because of the way it's compiled, one of the benefits being this TypeScript, so we get that kind of knowledge. But another one being the way that it's compiled, we have access to link it not just to your route names, which are kind of like pre-output, but instead it kind of directly links through the backend to your controller names and methods. So those are kind of the two big things we have going on now. But that's out. Very cool. Try it out. Experience what it's like. That's not the big story. What's the big story? OK.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Well, I'll add a third thing there, which is like, you know, I love Ziggy. I think Ziggy was great. I I'm a big Ziggy fan. One of the main complaints that people have is like, it exposes all my routes. And the first thing that I tell them is you should write your application as if everybody knows your routes. You should protect it accordingly. Right? So like that's the route isn't the secret. That's that should be, you could make all your routes public and you should still lock it down accordingly. That's point one.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, 100%.

Joe Tannenbaum:
One of the ways that we made Wayfinder is that any route you're not using in your actual client side code gets tree shaken out. Now there are, depending on how you decide you want to import them. So if you import the full controller namespace, so if you import like, you know, postcontroller.store,

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Well, everything from post controller down, you know, will be in your client side bundle, but you can also just import the store method and then you can get really precise about it say, like, I actually want to just make sure that like, that's the only one exposed in my client side bundle and just have that. So we try to allow you to import at any point in the namespace and get tree shake ability as far as we could down that chain. Right. So, and if you don't know what tree shake ability is that we're talking about, when you bundle your client side code, it will drop any code that you're not using. It'll intelligently analyze the bundle and say, actually, they're not using this export. Just drop it from the final bundle.

So, I also want to clarify one thing because I get this question a lot nowadays. Yes, you can import the controllers and the methods, but you can also still import by named route. So you can import that login named route and use it the same exact way. There's just two ways of attacking the same thing. So we're not getting rid of named routes and we are, we are also.

Matt Stauffer:
Love it.

Joe Tannenbaum:
embracing them and that's totally fine.

Okay, so I'm developing this thing with Tim. We're getting this package ready. It gets into its initial release and I get this like there's this thing in my head the whole time. I'm like well yeah we have routes now but like what are you supposed to be sending to these routes? Like that's also not type safe and that feels weird because now it feels like there's...

The gap is a little, a little tighter, but it feels like there's still a gap. So I was like, well, we could, we could analyze validation and form requests. We could totally do that and then generate TypeScript from that. And I was like, well.

If we're doing that, we could also probably analyze inertia responses and just see what the props are. So we could do that too. And I just was like, okay, how many, how many things can we analyze? And I just, I really rabbit holed for like a day or two. And I kept, we had this Laravel demos channel.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
which is if you just wanna demo something that you're working on or just get feedback, you just drop a video in there. I mean, I think there was like a week, maybe two weeks straight where I was just like, hey, now it does this. I don't know, is this anything? Okay, well it does this. And is this cool? Do we like this? And everybody's like, yeah, yeah, keep going, keep going. So basically the new version of Wayfinder.

Matt Stauffer:
Uh-huh. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
analyzes a slew of things, namely, what are your form requests supposed to look like? What is the data that the client should be sending to the server based on what the server has defined? So this is stuff like form requests and inline validation. Wayfinder now analyzes that, builds out TypeScript so you can just supply that to use form or the form component in order to understand what should be coming back.

Then we have inertia props that's coming down. So like when you are defining, like in vue, you have defined props, you can just drop something that Wayfinder has generated into that. It's so hard to say, it's so hard to verbally describe this.

Matt Stauffer:
Uh huh. Yes.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Basically we're generating types that you can just drop, like import into your component and drop in, right? That's the final thing. Then whenever those change, they change automatically as you write new code or you change code and they get reflected on the client side automatically. What else do we have? We have your broadcast events. We have the data that your broadcast events are broadcasting. So like whatever they're including with that broadcast, we're automatically generating that. All of your vite ENV variables are now being shoved into this like global vite ENV. So when you type...

import.meta.env. you have all of those Vite variables and their types associated right then and there. Yeah, I'm blanking on more, but we basically have like a laundry list of things that were like, well, we can analyze that. We just should, you know, so we, we're trying to, the goal is end to end type safety between PHP and JavaScript. That is the goal. That is what we're going for.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Do you think people will be using this a lot outside of Inertia or is this primarily beneficial for Inertia apps?

Joe Tannenbaum:
It is beneficial for anybody who is writing a backend in Laravel and a front end in JavaScript or TypeScript, point blank.

Matt Stauffer:
Love it.

Joe Tannenbaum:
If you are returning JSON, we are analyzing that. And so you can actually just say like, know, like if you're just using fetch instead of like anything Inertia, like we will tell you what that, that method is returning and you can type against that. And then basically have auto completion and, and, and validation right, right in mind with that.

Matt Stauffer:
Amazing.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah, it's been it's this is I don't know why I keep choosing really hard projects, but man, I love a hard project. It's it's it's not trivial. It's it's really there were days when I just stared into the abyss, you know, but but in like an excited way, but also like in a whoo, this is a little overwhelming at times, you know, but.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, well, I mean, it's just a lot to talk about, let alone to imagine everything that you've built. so kind of as you're kind of talking through all these, what I'm hearing is again, like simplifying this down to somebody who's just like, only understood about 40 % of the words you just said. What I heard you saying, that's not me. No, no, no, no, no, no, you're doing great. You're doing great. I'm with you. I'm putting myself. Yes.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Sorry. okay. I've got so much in my head that I'm trying to like distill as we're talking and I'm like, it's too much. It's too much, yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
It's the curse of knowledge, man. So so what I heard you say is your finding a bunch of places where there are shapes of data that are going to either come to the JavaScript or the JavaScript is going to push against.

So for example, JavaScript is sending data. It's going to be validated a certain way. So that means the PHP is expecting a certain shape of data. Let's tell the JavaScript it's expecting that shape of data by creating a type for that. Or let's say the data is being sent from the PHP to the JavaScript. It's going to tell the JavaScript, hey, expect data in this shape versus just, hey, there's going to be an array and there might be some stuff in it, right?

So it's like in PHP where we used to all pass associative arrays around to all our functions. And now all of a sudden we've got object oriented programming so we can create a class and the class says, Hey, you should expect these properties to be on it. You just expect these methods. And so when you pass something in that's of that class, you now can make assumptions about it versus having to check, does it have this property? Does it have this method? And similarly in JavaScript, we're getting data from PHP and it's just sort of like, hey, I hope it has this stuff. And now it's going to be like, hey, when you send something from PHP to JavaScript, it's going to expect to have these specific things. So that's kind of the first thing I'm hearing in terms of the data transfer back and forth in HTTP requests. Right. So I'm to send a message to PHP for JavaScript or vice versa. I'm going to have more data about those things are going on. I want us to talk about that for a second. Some of these are clear.

You know validation, you know is going to define what are the parameters that were expecting to be passed and some aspects of it. But tell me a little bit more about like when we're passing that information up to the JavaScript through these types. What do they know like if I were to say I? Expect an email field and the email field has to be an email. It's required And max length is 255. What does JavaScript learn about that from the validation there?

Joe Tannenbaum:
Right, so that's a great point. I've come to call all of these things that are currently in JavaScript that are not automatically synced by Wayfinder, educated guesses, which can fall out of sync with your PHP code. Like anything that I'm like, well, that's an educated guess. We don't know that that's what that looks like, but let's ensure that we do via Wayfinder. So like to your point, like when we were using associative arrays, those are educated guesses until the code just borks. And then you go, I guess that was a bad guess because it fell out of sync or whatever. Okay. So what gets passed up when you do something like that? We're boiling it down to primitives.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay.

Joe Tannenbaum:
As of now, I did go down a small side quest of saying like, well, we could do some actual validation on the JavaScript Skype. I felt like that was...

Not the strongest use case. didn't think that that felt good. I just felt like we should know what is the key and what is the type value of that key. So if you're passing an email, we know based on your validation that that's supposed to be a string. So if you're saying it's required, it's a string and max length and all that, we kind of drop, we bring in required. We say this is a required field via TypeScript. We bring in that's a string. Anything else within reason, there's a couple of things that we'll bring in, but most of the things we...

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
And that's it, yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
we drop. If you have an in rule, like if you say like, you know, it needs to be one of these values on the PHP side, we'll specify it has to be one of those values on the TypeScript side automatically. So then then we get a little narrower than like, it has to be a string. It actually has to be like the string one, two, three or four, right? Or whatever, which is a terrible example because those are numbers.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, because it's just so simple.

Yeah, one of these strings. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
But the words one, two, three or four. Yeah. So so for validation, we discard anything that doesn't boil down to like the primitive type. And then for that's pretty much true of everything. We're really get down and getting down to like primitive types. There are zero promises, but there might be a world in which we have some helper functions for validation in the future. But I, I just don't think that's the job that we're trying to accomplish.

Matt Stauffer:
I'm with you, so.

Joe Tannenbaum:
I'm really trying to say like, keep it simple, keep it streamlined. there's too much variation between the two languages to do like proper email string validation between them. don't really want to do that. Yeah. So, so primitive values is the, is the answer, right.

Matt Stauffer:
I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

And so we're using form requests, we're using inline validation, it's going to tell it what are the keys and what are the types that we should expect from those keys and sometimes also what are the potential options if it's like an enum type. And so that passes that information off to JavaScript. And now we're working in JavaScript. can kind of know like my submission to that should have these things. And our IDs will kind of clue us into that. You also mentioned that data coming back from the PHP to the JavaScript will give us some kind of typing. How does it intuit those sorts of things? Is it if you're returning a form response object or how does that work?

Joe Tannenbaum:
Are you talking about when like for an inertia render or a JSON response? that what you're talking about?

Matt Stauffer:
Either. I was thinking JSON response, really, you know, I guess with inertia render, it makes sense how it knows the data. But with it, it's with the JSON response as well, right? There, you said it kind of had some typing.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Right, so.

We look at the method that the route is pointing to and we basically say like, okay, what are the possible returns here? And we look at the code branching. So we're looking at all the if statements we're looking in, like all the possible. Yeah, this is not trivial.

Matt Stauffer:
Wow. huh. Yeah!

Joe Tannenbaum:
And then we, we say like, well, here are the possibilities, right? This is what this is possibly returning. So it's possibly returning. Normally you wouldn't be returning inertia and, or something else. So it's usually like you're only returning inertia or you're only returning, you know, JSON, but. That part is sort of the easier part because we're just collecting like top line return statements. But then the part that's harder is that we're saying, you're returning this inertia component three times with different data. We're going to clobber that all down and say, what fields are you always returning? Those are now required fields and will definitely be there. And what fields are you optionally returning and what are the different shapes of those values?

So we're saying like, you know, sometimes you pass a Boolean, but also other times you pass a string. So this could be a string or a Boolean. So we're going to say like account for either of those. So we're really trying to like distill this down to something that is actually useful on the client side. And the same goes for the JSON. So we'll collect all the JSON responses and say, you know, you're definitely getting these keys and you might be getting these keys and these are the shapes of the values of those keys and we even do that down the chain. So like if you have a nested key and it's required, required, required, maybe we will do that for you. like we were really trying to get as specific as possible because there's no point in creating types if the types aren't as accurate as they can be. My goal here is to never have an any type like as much as I can. You sometimes it's unavoidable but any doesn't help you. Yeah you get the key you get the key string but you don't get the value string the way that you really should. So yeah that's kind of how the analysis is going if that makes sense.

Matt Stauffer:
And for those not familiar in TypeScript, when you're typing things, you're saying this particular variable represents something that's a string or that's an integer. And if you say any, it's like, it could be literally anything. We don't know what it is. And so Joe's saying, we don't want to have those. Yeah, mixed in PHP.

Joe Tannenbaum:
It's mixed. It's the same as saying mixed in PHP. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Okay. So if I were to be excited about Wayfinder, do you imagine this being something that people bring into existing projects? Or is this more like you probably want to start from scratch with this?

Joe Tannenbaum:
No, you could totally bring it into existing projects and you can bring it in incrementally. So you could bring it into only new features. You could bring it into, you know, you can, you can convert things one by one as you're going. There's no, there is, you don't have to go like, right.

Matt Stauffer:
Mm-hmm.

It's not magically auto-applying to things. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
There's no magic in it. You use what you want to use you and it'll automatically get discarded, whatever you decide not to use. So bring it into your existing projects. Yeah. What's that? Go ahead.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And I know this is harder to do. No, go ahead. I know this is harder not being able to kind of like write code in front of them. So I appreciate your willingness to talk about this because I, know, if and for those who have not looked at, I would definitely recommend just go look at the Wayfinder readme because even though it's only routes right now, you can just see how it says import this and it's like, yes, I'm importing things from Wayfinder when I want to not just kind of blanket applying some Wayfinder conversion to my existing code.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Correct. And even stuff like you mentioned enums earlier and you said, know, enums, you know, what if it's, what if the form validation like is requiring an enum, right? Well, we actually are generating your enums as well. So like you can pull those in directly in the client and actually make sure you're using the correct things based on what you, what you've generated in your, in your code, in your PHP code. So if it's in your PHP and the client might be consuming it, we are really trying to get it in there.

Matt Stauffer:
Oh cool.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay.

Joe Tannenbaum:
And case in point, mean, somebody at Laracon literally day one before the presentation even happened, came up to me and said, like, I would love a way to get my translations into my current client side code. And I was like, we could totally do that, dude. I'm, I'm with you, man. Let's go. It's good. So it's on the list. We're going to figure it out.

Matt Stauffer:
We can add that, yeah. It's on the list.

Joe Tannenbaum:
We're going to, mean, getting them in there isn't hard. It's how you consume them as the hard part, because you don't want to load up your whole client side bundle with, every translation in your app, which gets pretty, pretty hefty, but we'll figure that out.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, with all your translations. Yeah. Well, speaking of client-side bundling, I'm assuming, but I should actually sanity check with you, that if I am making changes, let's say I rename one of my controllers or something like that, if I'm not running vite, I assume that that will temporarily break my front end. So if you're working on an app that uses Wayfinder, you should have vite running any time you're making backend changes, right?

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah, so there's a Wayfinder vite plugin that basically watches the appropriate files in your code base and runs a command behind the scenes to generate new TypeScript every time you change one of those files. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay, cool. Okay.

Joe Tannenbaum:
So it's part of the vite process, both in the dev and build modes. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay. All right. So we have talked to, I kind of talked at more depth at the form, the HTTP passing the form stuff, and you kind of gave us lists of some of these features. One thing I didn't ask you specifically is in what ways has Wayfinder changed since your announcement video at Laracon, if at all?

Joe Tannenbaum:
Well, I, so, you know, when you prep these talks, sometimes you do happy path and we did happy path. Like, right.

Matt Stauffer:
Sometimes we always do happy bath.

Joe Tannenbaum:
So, you know, I knew exactly what I want to do. I knew which types were being generated and it worked. It like does actually work in the way that I was presented at Laracon. When I threw it at, say like a Forge code base or a Cloud code base, which is like a, not insignificant code base.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
still worked pretty slow, pretty slow to compile and doesn't feel good in your dev cycle. So I was tapping into some PHP stand internals. I was tapping into some existing static analysis tools that are very robust. And that's why I was tapping into them, but are a little too heavy for what I'm trying to do with Wayfinder.

Matt Stauffer:
I was just, so it's the compile that's slow. Okay.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
So the big changes that I'm building my own static analyzer, which, um, I, I,

Matt Stauffer:
As one does, you know.

Joe Tannenbaum:
I really fought not to do. And if anybody listening to this says you fool, do it this way. I will give you the biggest hug ever, ever, ever.

Matt Stauffer:
In a heartbeat, yeah. Yeah.

Joe TAnnenbaum:
But, uh, as of now I'm building, um, a static analysis tool, um, which we can then use in other projects that we have, such as like the VS code extension and some other things. So it's not, it's not really a one-off, but,

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah, I'm building a static analysis tool that allows it to report back what it's finding and then allow me to do something with that report.

So I also announced a tool, a new package called Ranger at Laracon as well. And now Ranger sits between Wayfinder and the static analysis tool and says like, here's the static analysis results. Now we're gonna sort of announce prepackaged things that we're interested in up to whoever is listening. It's just turtles all the way down. But you know, yeah. So that's the big change is that, I'm building a static analysis tool against my will is the, is the big change.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Okay, so speaking of things that people say all the time and a lot of people don't actually know what it means, I talked about TypeScript first. We're going to talk about static analysis. If I've never heard of static analysis before, what does static analysis actually mean?

Joe Tannenbaum:
You are analyzing a code base without running it. So you're consuming the code, you're tokenizing the code. And thankfully there are packages that I'm leaning on that do some of that heavy lifting for me in a way that is wait, I always forget. It's like Nick PHP parsers. It's the same thing. Is that, is that the one?

Matt Stauffer:
Php parser, yeah. Yeah. Everybody uses that as the base, because it's just so good. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah. It's the same one everybody uses. It's so good. And it's, allows you to just sort of like match classes up as you find them and it makes it really consumable. So I'm standing on the shoulders of giants here, but I'm still building a static analysis tool. So I'm using that. I'm using the PHP, PHP stand doc and doc block analyzer package, which is doing a lot of heavy lifting on doing that parsing and reporting back. And then I'm gluing that together to make my own thing, but it analyzes your code without running it. That's the important part. So it's doing static analysis on your code. Yes.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And so you're building a super light one that does only the things you need it to do, which allows it to go faster. Are there any other aspects of and I know that, you know, in theory, got it. Got it. Fingers crossed.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yes. I'll say in theory, we haven't gotten to the end of this road yet. So like, there's no way I'm building something more robust than PHP stand in the time that I have, but I'm looking to get to, know, transparently I'm looking at the 90 % mark and then we'll fill in that last 10 % as time goes on and as we need to. But yeah, this is the stuff I'm interested in falls within that 90 % mark.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, and as a person who's never built a static analysis tool, I am actually very curious about how it works. I assume because you're using the PHP parser, it's all in PHP. So I'm curious about like what does optimization look like at that low of a level? And when you're talking about the optimization of like needs to be able to read through thousands to tens of thousands of files in preferably less than a second, because you don't want your build to add an extra two seconds. What kind of things are you looking at optimizing? Are you looking at

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
optimizing the speed of for loops? Are you trying to figure out how to exit? Like what kind of nerdery do you get to get into that maybe isn't a part of our day to day world as Laravel people who are trying to ship fast, not hyper optimize, you know, a single run, a single loop or whatever.

Joe Tannenbaum:
So I could fall down the optimization rabbit hole extremely hard.

Matt Stauffer:
I figured. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
I am purposely not doing that upfront because I want to get to a place where I'm confident that what I'm doing is correct. And then I'll kind of go back and do some optimizations, but. Things that I am thinking about because they just have already come up in the work that I've done is you have to have some sense of sensibly caching things that you know you've already handled, right? So like there's a little bit of like, know, this file is using this class. We've already analyzed this class. Don't reanalyze it. Just, you know, have some sort of cache there. That's kind of baseline. But then there's stuff like, you know, I would often reach for

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
collections, but I'm probably not going to because it just adds a little bit of heft and you just, you know, so now we're just doing, we're getting down to the basics. We're getting down to like core PHP and I try to keep it that way only. I also do a lot of like, does this need to be an object? Could it be something simpler than an object? There's a lot of that. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah. I wondered if it was that because it's a bummer because like we love using things like collections and objects and you know and then when you run a loop of 10,000 and you see that obstinately that object 10,000 times or doing that 10,000 item loop in a for each versus a collection actually makes a difference especially when it's a package level where this is just one of many things that's happening right if that collection is running in my controller.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
that difference in milliseconds probably doesn't matter to me, but it's running as a package that is one of 20 things that's running before he even gets to user land code. Suddenly it's like, I don't get the convenience of that because I've got to shave every microsecond, millisecond I can off.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah, at scale it doesn't at scale you can feel it. You can feel that it's it's a little hefty, but those that's what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, OK. All right. So when I asked kind of the question I asked was like, what has changed since Laracon and that was your first answer was, I got to make sure it can kind of stay fast. Are there any AST feature API kind of changes that you're making or is it more like it's probably supposed to do the same things you also for those who saw the talk, it's supposed to do all those same things, but we're just trying to make it can do it, make sure it does it.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah, I think I added, I added the ENV stuff. I added a couple of little things that I knew. I was like, we use this on the client side. I can definitely analyze this through like, that's fine. So I added a couple of things here and there. and there will be more added once the static analyzer is built. More things will be added because I've kind of, I've got about five additional things that I can't remember. I should have read before this that I'm going to add. That's the big, it's just going to be more.

It's going to be more, more things that it will generate. And if you're not interested in those things, we'll provide configs to say like opt out I don't even want you to generate this stuff so that if you don't care about your translations, if you don't care about, you know, named routes, whatever you can opt out and, probably increase your or decrease your dev times, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, it's a little faster. Yeah. Okay. You mentioned that ENV is not having kind of like poked at that after you said it, but I do want to say that it feels extremely magical to be in what feels very much not the world where we get intelligence and to be start typing and then for it to be like, yep, I know what your NV is. And it's just kind of auto. And I'm like, but I wrote that in my dot ENV file just, you know, five hours ago. How do you know this? And so.

I just want folks to say like even if you're not familiar with TypeScript, even if you're not interested in TypeScript, getting this level of intelligence in your IDE. Sorry, let me let me go back at that again. Folks have often suggested that in order to get better IDE completions and stuff, we need to add sprinkles of, you know, what are they called? Annotations all around our PHP code, right? And I've worked with people who are like big PHP Stormheads and every line of code they write has

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
three lines ahead of it that's saying it's a var of this, var of that. And I've always been the guy that I'm like, I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to write code that I hate reading for the sake of an IDE. I'm just, I don't care that much.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yes. I know. But.

Matt Stauffer:
But, but pulling in a package that doesn't make me write things differently almost at all, you know, like, yeah, importing it might be a little bit different, but sometimes importing the Wayfinder definition of something actually be faster than writing it myself. So I'm getting my coding workflows actually better because it's clear and simpler and I don't have to change it when I change the backend, but also getting all this IDE improvements for what feels like for free. I'm like, now that I can sign off on, like that's a very exciting, you know, exciting kind of improvement.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah.

Two things on that one from day one when I started like in earnest working on Wayfinder with Tim. I said I do not want people to change their existing PHP code to make this work.

Matt Stauffer:
Yes.

Joe Tannenbaum:
It makes me crazy to annotate something that has nothing to do with the thing that you're actually looking at or like add extra weird little dog blocks or whatever. That makes me insane. And so I was like, I'm not, that is the goal. That is the north start. We should just generate what is accurate from what is there.

Matt Stauffer:
Love it.

Joe Tannenbaum:
The second thing is after the presentation at Laracon, I had so many people come to me and say like, this is the first time I've even thought about writing TypeScript based on what you did up there. And I was like, that's the win. I was just, I could just walk away. And not that I'm a huge, not that I'm like an, like a crazy TypeScript person, but like if you just embrace it for a week and you're not even writing that many types.

Matt Stauffer:
Yes!

Joe Tannenbaum:
The IDE intelligence goes up exponentially. It's so much more and it's so useful. And especially when you're consuming packages that have really good types associated with them, you just immediately feel the difference. You're like, how did it know that? It's a lot of how did it know that? And you know, now this, I will say this, the stronger your PHP types are, and some people are already screaming, the stronger they are, the better...

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
the tighter it's going to be on the Wayfinder side, right? So I'm doing static analysis and, you know, PHP only knows what PHP knows. So I'm doing the best that I can. and this static analysis also includes as much Laravel, for lack of a better word, magic as possible. I'm like, if I can't find the method I'm looking for, I'm like, is it a macro? And I'll look and if it's a macro, I'll pull the macro and like understand. So it's like really injecting, like specific to Laravel static analysis.

Matt Stauffer:
Mm-hmm.

Joe Tannenbaum:
That being said, the tighter your PHP types are, the tighter the Wayfinder types are going to be. Like I said, there's a direct correlation to like, you are saying it's this, I will generate that. No problem. Yeah. So.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, when I just actually the last question I had for you before I asked the usual, is there anything you want to cover that we didn't is, is there a way that you think that we should be writing our Laravel code that enables it to better synchronize whether through Wayfinder or anything else with the front end? And I mean, you mentioned, okay, using form requests inline validation. mean, I don't think you should be doing validation any other way, right? So, okay. But like what other things are there any ways you said we don't have to write code for this?

Joe Tannenbaum:
Par for the course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
But lots of times when there's like seven different ways to do a thing in Laravel, a new tool comes out and like this new tool only works with four of the seven. So maybe start using those four. Are there any ways that are still multiple options, but where you're like, it would be more valuable if you do more of this or less of this, or is it really just what you said is basically the quality of your types is reflected?

Joe Tannenbaum:
I'm really trying to meet you where you're at. I'm really trying. I guess my only advice would be I would invite you not to get too clever. Like I think that's just a general good rule anyway.

Matt Stauffer:
Yes, agreed.

Joe Tannenbaum:
I think like getting too clever about your code is fun for you and bad for everybody else. I think it's, no, I mean, I think it's one of those things where if you're the only one maintaining this thing, great. Be a genius about it. I love it.

Matt Stauffer:
Sure, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Otherwise, I think we have some good conventions, especially when you're using a framework, lean into those conventions. You don't need to invent a whole new paradigm, like just lean in. And especially if you lead in, Wayfinder will understand things better. But I'm really, really desperately, desperately trying to meet you wherever you're at, no matter how clever you're being. We'll see how it pans out, but that's, that's the goal.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay, so it's kind of the same story we keep telling, which is the more you stick with the Laravel kind of idiomatic way of doing it, the Laravel defaults don't kind of think that you're smarter than the framework. You're more likely to have a good time, but Joe's a good guy. He's gonna try and make it work for you either way.

Joe Tannenbaum:
I try man, I'm gonna try.

Matt Stauffer:
All right, I know that we're, I told you this was gonna be short episode and I lied. There's so much good stuff here. Is there anything that we haven't covered about Wayfinder that you wanna make sure we get a moment to talk about?

Joe Tannenbaum:
I don't think so. I think what was interesting to me post-talk is that people were amped about Wayfinder, but they were really amped about Ranger. And I was really surprised because I devoted two and a half minutes to it, I think. I don't even know because I was just like, this is an implementation detail. But people are amped and I'm amped that they're amped because I want to see what they build with it. So I'll have more details.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. What's Ranger for anybody who didn't see your talk?

Joe Tannenbaum:
So Ranger, basically under the hood runs the static analysis tool and then kind of reports back these well-defined typed objects that say like, Hey, I found a route. Hey, I found an inertia response. Hey, I found a config value. Hey, I found, you know, and it reports back things that you say that you're interested in. It won't even touch anything that you're not interested in. It'll just say, you know you, you set up these listeners, you say like on route, do something with this route and, and then you can do anything. So in Wayfinder's case, it's generating TypeScript, but you could generate, you know, open API specs. could generate, you know, Jason schema. could generate. XML markdown files, whatever you want from what is in your app. And, it's meant to be sort of this blue sky tool that says, like, I do one thing I do well.

Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, I tell you things about the app. What do want to do with it? Yeah.

Joe Tannenbaum:
What do you want to do with it? the right? What's up for you? So, yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
And when, when I first read through the Ranger code base, everything was like the day put it public. I noticed that there were things that I don't know if you still have them there, like has a composter dependency, has a composer dev dependency, uses a particular way of programming.

Joe Tannenbaum:
that's the, I think that's the roster code base. That's roster, which is, which is something Ashley put out because Rangers not public yet.

Matt Stauffer:
Is it really? Okay.

Joe Tannenbaum:
It is very not public yet because I'm still even like figuring out the API. I, I, I have the API that I I'm happy with, but I want to make sure it's like the right one overall.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay, that definitely explains because I was just like, it's feeling like it's diverging a lot from what I first read. So that explains why.

Joe Tannenbaum:
I think it's called Roster. think that's the one that Ashley put out that analyzes your composer dependencies and package dependencies. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
It's roster, I've got it pulled up. Yes. And it's the whole, it's so funny because I've mixed the two up in my head and like I was telling people at Laracon, I was just like, wow, I expected a Ranger was gonna be used more for AI stuff and now he's using it for this. And that's why, apologies to anybody I've misled over the last several months.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Maybe it something to us about our naming. should coordinate that and make sure we're on the same page. Yeah.

Matt Stauffer:
I mean, cool new package that does discovery about your app that's six letters long and starts with R and ends with ER. You know, I'm not saying you guys need to rename it. I'm just feeling not too bad about myself.

Joe Tannenbaum:
I know. It's an understandable mistake.

Matt Stauffer:
So OK, cool. So Ranger is not public, but at some point Ranger will be a tool that's public that is accessible to the rest of us. And it is primarily around discovering the state of certain things in your app and then allowing you to do. Is that on hook? Is that like?

How does that actually, how do you build the hooks? Is it sort of like you build a definition of those hooks and then you run a command in Ranger and it processes it and then does all the hooks and then just exits?

Joe Tannenbaum:
There are predefined hooks that that ranger comes with. Like you can't right now, you can't extend it. You can't like do custom things with it. It's just saying like, you know, this is what ranger is willing to report about. And these are like the shapes of the things that it brings back. And then what you'd so in like Wayfinder's case that generates command, which is generating the TypeScript says like it news up ranger and it says on route.

Matt Stauffer:
Mm-hmm.

Joe Tannenbaum:
generate the type script for the route on configs, generate that on, you know, and it just kind of goes online and then it says Ranger walk and it just walks your app. Yeah. So the, ultimately after you set up your listeners, say, okay, now do it now go off you go. and Ranger will be out in beta.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay, so it's got a command that, yeah, okay. Got it. Okay. Ranger Walk is fun.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yeah, it's fun. It's I think it's going to be very useful and I'm so excited that people are excited about it. I just wasn't expecting it. Yeah.
But it'll be out in beta probably right at the same time that Wayfinder is, because they depend on each other. So it'll be kind of neck and neck there.

Matt Stauffer:
If you're listening to this podcast and you have a vision for what you're going to do with Ranger when it comes out, hit us up anywhere. Comment on the YouTube, hit us up on Twitter, BlueScry.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Yes, want to know.

Matt Stauffer:
We're just very curious to hear kind of what are your plans with it.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Absolutely, absolutely.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay. Joe, is there anything else you wanted to cover?

Joe Tannenbaum:
I think that's it. I think that's it.

Matt Stauffer:
Okay, thank you for being my first repeat guest of the season. I really appreciate you.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Thank you for having me.

Matt Stauffer:
Marathon at this point, we have 45 minutes. And we're really excited. I'm very excited to try Wayfinder. I'm excited to be fully converted. I use TypeScript a little bit, but I don't get to code that much these days. But I'm very sold on having this smart IDE auto completion, so I'm ready.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Awesome. I'm extremely excited about it. This is like a pain point that I could feel intimately and I'm really excited to solve it at this point.

Matt Stauffer:
Very cool. Well, thank you for working on the package and all your contributions and thank you for hanging out with us.

Joe Tannenbaum:
Thanks man, I appreciate it.

Matt Stauffer:
Awesome. And for the rest of you, we will see you next time.